topic Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues in Android TV

KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Wed, 08 May 2019 08:38:54 GMT

Hello guys

Few days back I bought a new KD-65x9000f & having a kind of peculiar issue with the same. My audio system ONKYO S3800 is connected to HDMI Port 3, which has ARC & I have number of devices (One PC running Windows 10, A Satellite receiver, Amazon FireTv stick) connected to it. The HDMI out on the audio device is equipped with ARC & supports 4K60p.

My issues are listed like below:

As soon as I start the TV, the Mode on my Audio System lcd panel changes to TV. I switch the audio system input to CBL/SAT or BD/DVD using the remote, the feeds are displayed & I can use the TV remote to control the audio system volume. The issues start when I switch off the TV. The audio stream from CBL/SAT or BD/DVD continue to play, forcing me to switch off the audio system.

I did a factory reset on the TV & out of 10 times, 6-7 times switching off the TV changes the mode on audio system to TV and the audio stream is automatically cut off. Other 3-4 times, I must switch on the TV once again and switch off to stop the audio from playing.

Currently the android version is 7 on my TV & my audio system is loaded with latest firmware.

The ONLY one thing I haven't done yet is resetting the audio device. Should I do that? or this is exepcted behavior of AndroidTV?

Please suggest.

thanks

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

Pascale_F — Thu, 09 May 2019 18:44:24 GMT

Hi rajthampi,

Welcome to the community.

I'll see if I can find this out for you. Maybe someone else in the community can help in the meantime.

Thanks,

Pascale

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

Win_88 — Mon, 13 May 2019 12:57:10 GMT

Hi rajthamp,

Have you considered connecting the the satellite receiver to the TV directly? I think what's happening is more related to the sound bar in any case, so resetting it should be an interesting step to take.

Win_88

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Tue, 14 May 2019 05:17:05 GMT

Hello @Win_88

My TV comes with 4 HDMI inputs, however I prefer the existing setup (all devices hooked up to my audio system, then one output to TV)

I think it is how Sony has designed the system to be. While the TV colors, image quality are unmatched, the software that accompanies the equipment is pathetic, short visioned & buggy. I do hope the new firmware they are offering will take care of minimum few glitches those forced me to reset the TV thrice already within 2 weeks since the unit was delivered to me!

Thanks for the reply buddy, really appreciate. I live in Kuwait & had to come to UK portal as the middle east community doesn't have a dedicated forum!

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Tue, 14 May 2019 06:13:44 GMT

@rajthampi

Look at it from the Onkyo receiver’s point of view. As far as it is concerned, you are playing the CBL/SAT or BD/DVD signal to it, and it is presenting you with the sound, and incidentally feeding the video through to the TV.

Then you turn the TV off; and why should the Onkyo stop playing the signal you have asked it to play?

That would require one of two things; that the TV, on being switched off, should send a CEC (BraviaSync) message to the Onkyo instructing it to turn off also, or that the Onkyo, on detecting the TV has been turned off (possible in principle even without CEC, but could the Onkyo actually do it?) should stop any signal passing through it that has a video component.

But I don’t think either of these things should be the desired behaviour, and I think how the Onkyo and the TV are behaving here is the correct behaviour.

AAMOI, what happens if, after you have turned the TV off in the situation above, you turn it on again?

Does the Onkyo carry on playing the input signal, or does it revert to TV?

I would hope for the former, but if it does the latter, it suggests a workaround; TV Off, TV On, TV Off

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Tue, 14 May 2019 06:25:04 GMT

Hello @royabrown2

My previous TV (Sony KLV-40something) was non-smart. Hence whenever the TV is turned on, the input source selected over the Onkyo was defaulted and the TV starts playing. As soon as the TV turned off, it cuts off the entire stuffs (no more audio feed, even though both Onkyo and satellite receiver are still online)

My KLV-40" TV is approximately 8+ years old & apparently ARC is not mentioned anywhere for the model. Yet, after enabled HDMI control on the TV, I am able to control the Audio System volume using the TV remote :))

So, I go so used to the old setup that, the new TV and new way of turning on and off, plus, Onkyo streaming audio after TV turned off etc are kind of irritating for me. Should get used to it soon.

Tv off, Tv on, Tv off definitely cuts off the Onkyo audio stream. I already tested this. The problem is my kids who don't really understand such "complex" orders.

Thanks buddy.

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Tue, 14 May 2019 07:07:39 GMT

The thing that controls your Onkyo from the TVs, old and new, and vice versa, is CEC, Sony’s flavour of which is called BraviaSync.

I expect your KLV-40 had this. (Still has, if you have still got it).

ARC (Audio Return Channel) is the thing that means the same HDMI cable that sends video and audio up from the Onkyo to the TV can also send the audio from whatever is playing on the TV down to the Onkyo so you get the sound from the Onkyo instead of the TV’s speakers.

If your KLV-40 didn’t have this, then you would have had to have got the sound from the TV to the Onkyo by a different route, maybe an optical connection?

If it even had one, though; there are many KLV40s on the web - here’s one such - and yes to CEC, but no to ARC, and maybe only the headphone output for getting audio to an amp.

So CEC would have gone up and down the HDMI cable that linked the KLV-40 and the Onkyo, and audio would have gone up it, but no audio from programmes tuned in on the KLV-40, or other devices connected directly to the TV, if any, would have come back by ARC.

Can you recall how you got the sound from the KLV-40 to the Onkyo, if indeed you ever did?

That might explain part of the difference with the current setup, though not all of it.

Does the Onkyo never say ARC instead of TV, by the way? My Yamaha YSP-2500 does, changing the display from TV as soon as it detects ARC. But perhaps your Onkyo is different.

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Wed, 15 May 2019 03:42:52 GMT

@royabrown2 wrote:
The thing that controls your Onkyo from the TVs, old and new, and vice versa, is CEC, Sony’s flavour of which is called BraviaSync.

I expect your KLV-40 had this. (Still has, if you have still got it).

ARC (Audio Return Channel) is the thing that means the same HDMI cable that sends video and audio up from the Onkyo to the TV can also send the audio from whatever is playing on the TV down to the Onkyo so you get the sound from the Onkyo instead of the TV’s speakers.

If your KLV-40 didn’t have this, then you would have had to have got the sound from the TV to the Onkyo by a different route, maybe an optical connection?

If it even had one, though; there are many KLV40s on the web - here’s one such - and yes to CEC, but no to ARC, and maybe only the headphone output for getting audio to an amp.

So CEC would have gone up and down the HDMI cable that linked the KLV-40 and the Onkyo, and audio would have gone up it, but no audio from programmes tuned in on the KLV-40, or other devices connected directly to the TV, if any, would have come back by ARC.

Can you recall how you got the sound from the KLV-40 to the Onkyo, if indeed you ever did?

That might explain part of the difference with the current setup, though not all of it.

Does the Onkyo never say ARC instead of TV, by the way? My Yamaha YSP-2500 does, changing the display from TV as soon as it detects ARC. But perhaps your Onkyo is different.

Hello @royabrown2

Greetings. My KLV-40BX400 was hooked to the onkyo avr using a version 2.0 HDMI cable. No other audio cables (as the unit doesn't support). All I could say that, I was able to adjust the AVR volume using the TV remote & which ARC also does.

The ONKYO says TV (This AVR is the entry level unit, with no issues till date, no firmware updates) once after the KD-65 (new TV) started by pressing either Tv button or Power on button on the remote. That means, if the ONKYO device was on CBL/SAT mode, switching on the TV turns this mode to TV & I must select BD/DVD, CBL/SAT using ONKYO remote to watch the intended program.

This is the most awkward area for me, turning the TV on swiching the mode of my AVR, which my other TV never did. Should this be the behavior of Smart TVs?

regards,

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Wed, 15 May 2019 08:24:54 GMT

Hi @rajthampi

I found this in the manual for your Onkyo, page 33, Troubleshooting:-

The input of this unit switches from one to another. (When the ARC function is ON)

The CEC (Consumer Electronic Control) function may activate when the ARC function is turned ON, causing power to turn ON and OFF and the input to switch from one to another. Since this unit does not guarantee synchronized operation based on the CEC function, we recommend that you turn OFF the HDMI CONTROL setting on the connected player. This unit may not operate properly if the HDMI CONTROL on the player is ON. Refer to the relevant device’s instruction manual for details. If this does not work, turn OFF the ARC function.
If this is the case, listen to the TV audio after connecting this unit and the TV with an audio cable.

i.e. this is a known and anticipated issue with this Onkyo, and it is happening now because this is the first time you have tried to use it with ARC, which the older TV didn’t have.

It also explains why you are thinking that ARC involves CEC (being able to change the volume of the Onkyo with the TV remote) which it doesn’t; it is your Onkyo that is tangling up the two.

However, on page 31 of your manual, it tells you how to turn ARC Off on the Onkyo, which means things should go back to how they were with the KLV-40.

But it’s clear from the Onkyo manual that this is an issue with the slightly strange way the Onkyo handles ARC; this would happen with any TV, Sony or not, that has ARC.

You still haven’t quite told us how you listened on the Onkyo to the sound from TV programmes playing on the KLV-40, if you ever did; but if that didn’t have ARC (which does seem to be the case) and if you didn’t have any other signal cables linking the KLV-40 and the Onkyo, it must be that you never did this.

In which case you presumably won’t miss this feature of the new TV if you turn ARC off on the Onkyo, or just connect the Onkyo to a non-ARC HDMI port on the new TV, and things will pretty much go back to how they were before, which is what you want.

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Wed, 15 May 2019 09:13:29 GMT

@royabrown2

You still haven’t quite told us how you listened on the Onkyo to the sound from TV programmes playing on the KLV-40, if you ever did; but if that didn’t have ARC (which does seem to be the case) and if you didn’t have any other
signal cables linking the KLV-40 and the Onkyo, it must be that you never did this.

My old KLV-40 TV was connected to the AVR using a fast HDMI cable. No additional cable for audio. Btw, I aslo started to digest the idea that, it must be the AVR as it is kind of old, entry level with no firmware updates etc.

It's really nice to see that you have put so much of efforts to find out about the CEC ONKYO part. That should finally make me feel pacified with the existing situation.

As I am still kind of novice with audio systems, let me quote few lines from your last post and clarify

The CEC (Consumer Electronic Control) function may activate when the ARC function is turned ON, causing power to turn ON and OFF and the input to switch from one to another. Since this unit does not guarantee synchronized operation based on the CEC function, we recommend that you turn OFF the HDMI CONTROL setting on the connected player. This unit may not operate properly if the HDMI CONTROL on the player is ON. Refer to the relevant device’s instruction manual for details. If this does not work, turn OFF the ARC function.

Here, the connected player means my new Sony TV right?

Thanks for your time! I really learned loads of things just because of my Sony TV

regards,

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Wed, 15 May 2019 09:34:05 GMT

@royabrown2

Actually I was drafting another reply while your last post came. Today morning I reset the ONKYO device & realized that the behavior remains as listed below.

Turn on the TV

The mode on the AVR changes to "Tv"

Manually switch to CBL/SAT or BD/DVD, Tv starts receiving the video feed and AVR receives the audio feed through a fast HDMI cable with ARC enabled

Turn off the TV, the AVR immediately changes the mode to "Tv" and the audio feed is cut off

Turn on the TV, the mode on AVR changes to "Tv"

Manually changed the AVR mode to BD/DVD or CBL/SAT

Turn off the TV, the mode on the AVR remains whichever mode that was manually selected & audio continues to play

After reading your last post, I am slowly indulging the idea that CEC doesn't always work with ONKYO & preparing myself to live with it. I had to decide to live with this minor annoyance after reading about HDMI vs Optical at CNET.

"The biggest difference is that HDMI can pass higher-resolution audio, including the formats found on Blu-ray: Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio. These formats can't get transmitted across optical."

Thank you very much once again for all your kind inputs. As I've said earlier, I hardly knew these many details until date & glad that I learned few new things just because of this thread.

regards,

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Wed, 15 May 2019 11:33:02 GMT

@rajthampi

Thank you in turn for your kind words - I am glad I am able to be helpful

I’m starting with your last post, as there is a misapprehension here I need to correct before going back to the post before it. You said:-

Manually switch to CBL/SAT or BD/DVD, TV starts receiving the video feed and AVR receives the audio feed through a fast HDMI cable with ARC enabled

Which would be true if the CBL/SAT and BD/DVD were plugged directly into the TV - as indeed has been suggested here by @Win_88 as an alternative way to connect things (which I will come back to in my next post).

But as I understand it, the CBL/SAT and BD/DVD are plugged into the AVR (the Onkyo), not the TV, so this should be:-

Manually switch to CBL/SAT or BD/DVD, AVR starts receiving the video and audio feed from that device through a fast HDMI cable with no ARC needed or set, and the AVR passes the video to the TV via the HDMI cable to the TV, again with no ARC needed for this.

The rest of what you wrote there is fine.

In the above, all the signals are going one way e.g. CBL/SAT -> AVR -> TV so ARC (Audio Return Channel) doesn’t come into it.

But let’s imagine the TV is tuned to something, or you have a device plugged into that and not the AVR, and you want the sound to come from the AVR, not the TV.

So we have the HDMI cable to the TV going AVR -> TV as above. But with ARC, there is one wire in the HDMI cable that goes the other way, from the TV to the AVR, with audio only.

And your AVR knows that when you select TV, you want the AVR not to send video up the HDMI cable to the TV, but just to listen to that one ARC wire with audio coming back from the TV, and to play you that audio.

This post is to explain what ARC does, which is normally quite separate from what CEC does, though your AVR seems to entangle the two, making it harder to understand what’s doing what.

I’ll come back to CEC in my next post, replying to your post before this one; but hopefully you can see why I had to cover this one first.

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Wed, 15 May 2019 17:02:34 GMT

@royabrown2

As I already mentioned, I hardly got much exposure to audio systems. I have very small sitting area & the ONKYO did good until I decided to change the TV.

Trying to find a solution to my NOT really an actual issue has brought me to so much knowledge, like what is ARC in clear layman terms etc. Thank you very much.

Rest about the connection, you are 101% right. All my external devices are connected to AVR and one HDMI goes "up" to the TV

regards,

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Thu, 16 May 2019 07:11:27 GMT

@rajthampi (replying to the post about what ‘player’ means there.)

Truth to tell, I don’t know quite what your manual means.

If you turn off CEC (BraviaSync) on the TV, then your TV remote will likely no longer control the AVR, and you will have to use its own remote.

From what you have told us, the best option would be just to stop the ARC, either by using a non-ARC HDMI input to connect the AVR, or by turning off ARC in the menus of the AVR (p31 in your AVR manual).

Its not at all clear from the AVR manual what its behaviour with regard to CEC is; whether it is always on, or normally off but it turns on when you use ARC, or what. I couldn’t find any setting on the AVR that lets you control CEC, though, so I guess it does what it does.

Now, where to connect your devices - to the AVR, or the TV? I would leave them where they are; it’s what you are used to, and as the AVR does seem to be up to the minute, it will push the video to the TV without any loss compared to the video you get by directly connecting your devices to the TV, and you may find it treats the audio better than what you would get down the ARC wire from the TV.

So, bottom line; leave the devices connected to the AVR, move the HDMI cable from the ARC HDMI port on the TV to a non-ARC HDMI port (these ports can have different specs on other Sony TVs, so if that is the case here, choose the one with the highest spec), and you should find it will work just like the KLV-40 did.

You won’t get sound back from the TV to the AVR, either from the TV tuner or from any other device plugged directly into the TV, but as far as I can tell, you don’t use these options, so it doesn’t matter.

If it does matter though, go back to using the ARC HDMI, and you will have to get used to the slightly different way the AVR works when you have ARC.

Or if the non-ARC doesn’t work like the KLV-40 did, when you try it, again, go back to the ARC HDMI and get used to how things work with it on.

The setup with ARC will be useful in the future if you run out of HDMI inputs on the ~~ARC~~ [Edit: AVR], and have to plug any further device(s) into the TV.

You will have to try these CEC versus non-CEC and ARC versus non-ARC options for yourself, as the AVR manual doesn’t give enough detail for me to predict exactly how these will behave.

But one of these options may work just like the KLV-40 did for you; and if not, you know you will have to get used to the new rules

Nothing here that would make me want to change what seems like a top-notch AVR because of one small oddity though

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Thu, 16 May 2019 05:50:37 GMT

Hello @royabrown2

Well, I tried with ARC disabled on the AVR & as soon as the ARC disabled:

No TV remote controller cannot be used for AVR volume

The most interesting part of the ordeal is, once ARC is disabled, if I start youtube or netflix, the TV speakers plays the audio and my AVR continues to play the audio from current selected device.

So finally I decided to enable ARC & continue with my minor discomforts as the viewing & listening experiences are far far different than my previous setup.

Thank you for your patience & the time you spent on behalf of me. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Thu, 16 May 2019 07:26:55 GMT

@rajthampi

Glad we got to a resolution!

Yes, if you use Netflix or YouTube on this new TV, you do, as you have found, need ARC to get the audio to the Onkyo.

I still don’t know how the audio on the previous TV would get to the Onkyo if you played apps like these on it, if it didn’t have ARC and you only had the one HDMI cable linking them; but that is a problem for the past, not the present

Anyway, we now know you have things set up the best they can be, so I hope you and your family can soon get used to the new way things work!

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Thu, 16 May 2019 07:32:16 GMT

Hi @royabrown2

My other TV, which was non-smart ONLY gave me the video & audio was always handled by the ONKYO. So there are hardly any confusions as NO devices were straight away plugged to the TV, other than the AVR. I used either Amazon FireStick or my PC for youtube & netflix before the new Tv & yes, things were as I listed in my previous updates

I think it's going to take me sometime to really understand how the entire setup sync together & may comeup with something better.

Thanks and regards,

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

royabrown2 — Thu, 16 May 2019 08:03:00 GMT

@rajthampi

Ah, that explains everything.

You never played anything on the old TV, except from the AVR, so there never was a need for audio to go from the TV to the AVR, nor for the TV speakers to be used - maybe they never played any audio (or maybe you had them always muted) so sound only ever came from the AVR.

But now, with all the goodies on the Smart TV, you are wanting to play things from the TV itself, so to get the sound to the AVR and mute the TV speakers, you do need the ARC on, as it is the only thing that does this automatically.

So do try to understand how it all syncs - I recommend getting a big sheet of paper, drawing a box for each device, and then separate arrows for video and audio (even if they are actually in the one cable) showing what signal is going where. Arrows in pencil, as there might be a bit of rubbing out and redrawing

And then thinking about what might be better on a copy of the diagram, drawing the arrows accordingly, and then trying it for real.

But don’t be surprised if you conclude that how it is now is the best it can be

Re: KD-65x9000f & Onkyo Audio System Issues

rajthampi — Thu, 16 May 2019 08:17:44 GMT

@royabrown2

haha not entirely true! I am 45, managing a midsize IT infrastructure & was doing database development from early 20s & a techblogger. My "Wife" INSISTS to believe that, I am born to figure out all issues related to all the electronics junk at home & we had loads of debates before she decided to GIFT me this new TV (the other one is rock solid with not a single pixellation or other technical issues after almost 8 years). As soon as she found me fiddling with multiple remotes & my frustrations, started giving me those "I've told you" looks (haha)

Well @royabrown2 , there were times when my wife or kids forget to turn on the AVR & my KLV-40 used to switch the speakers to TV & played the CBL/SAT or BD/DVD (ONKYO does let the HDMI signal passthrough it regardless whether it is switched on or not). There were NO muting on the TV ever done, the TV is intelligent enough to switch between TV speakers and AVR (Which turned on) & yes, there were few occassions, I had to go to settings on the TV to change the speaker setup to Audio system. That I believe, happens even with the software I develop for a living ;). Occassional bugs or unforeseen scenarios.

Now the entire atmo has changed. Wife and kids should get multiple remotes, fiddle with them until they "SEE" and hear things. As you said earlier, yes, it is the new way and I am sure my smart girls (Wife and 2 daughters) will get used to it.

You are very kind @royabrown2 . I know this is a technical discussion thread, however, want to relate something. Few of my blog threads are pages long with 10s of images & many occassions I spend hours to compile an article. My wife considers it as a thankless job and today I let her sit with me and go through our conversation. After few minutes she said "So, you are NOT the only one ..." I think she wanted to say "crazy dude out there". Haha, well, most of the times thare are few chaps like YOU out there to guide few guys like us. Stay blessed friend, I really really appreicate your time.

regards,