topic Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems in Android TV

Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Patrandec — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:33:11 GMT

Hi All,

I really, really hoped earlier in the year that the problems I was experiencing with my 8005C (2015) were a thing of the past. Unfortunately for the past couple of days the audio on the Amazon app on the TV has been badly out of sync. All of the other Amazon apps on e.g. my Sony Blu Ray player and PS4 are absolutely fine, and it's not affecting Netflix etc. So it is defnitely the TV.

Is anyone else having the same problem and is there a cure for this irritating issue? It's the only app where I can access 4K playback so I'm keen to get it resolved.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Anonymous — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:55:06 GMT

Hi there

You mentioned that the lip sync issues on the Amazon App have been bad for the last couple of days - has it worked properly before or??

Do you use the TVs internal speakers or do you have an external audio system such as a sound bar?

Have you tried a 'soft' reset of the TV ? - Press and hold the power button on the remote control for 10 seconds and the TV should reboot itself. If that fails, try a factory reset of the TV iself and see if it helps?

Cheers

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Nibor99 — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 15:51:18 GMT

Hi,

Hoping someone can help.

I have a 2015 Sony android TV - model KD43X8309CBU

Last night I tried Amazon Prime for the first time - terrible lip sync issues!!

I use a Canton Soundbase linked optically but even going through the TV speakers I have what seems to be a voice lip sync lag.

The TV was updated a few days ago and has the latest firmware.

I normally view through Virgin Media and have had no lipsync issues with them.

The wifi signal seems OK.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks

Robin

PS just tried another couple of Amazon Prime films these seem OK The issue seems to be mainly with the Grand Tour Jeremy Clarkson show

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

TWLeebo — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 09:36:08 GMT

This won't help but.....

I watched The Grand Tour in UHD on Amazon and had no lipsync issues. I've got the 8305 on the latest firmware, connected to a Yamaha 5.1 amp via optical cable (I have trouble with ARC that I can't be bothered to try to resolve!). I also watched Mr. Robot on Amazon and that was fine too.

I do get lipsync issues sometimes, mainly on video files that I'm playing through the stock video app.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

NickJoh — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 15:53:06 GMT

If the problem is only with 4K content your problem is very likley due to the fact that 4K images (2160 versus 1080) are 4 times the data and consequently can be 4 times the video delay which will allow the audio to arrive well ahead of the image unless compensated for by an equivalent audio delay.

Since there is currently no synchronication data to define when audio and video were ever in sync (that may change in the future) broadcasters are "supposed to" insert audio delays to match video delays every time they do anything that can delay the video (any digital video effect - DVE - will delay the video). Unfortunately that is an open loop control system (measure video delay and add equal video delay) with no feedback so any mistake will result in a lip-sync error in the signal that cannot be detected downstream automatically.

The problem starts at content creation and there is very little a broadcaster can do to correct signals that already have lip-sync error when they receive them.

Add to this problem the fact that flat screen TV's also delay video ( many 80 to 100 ms) and lip-sync is a moving target often changing beteeen every program and sound almost always arrives before the accompalying image. If broadcasters over correct it is possible audio may arrive delayed but that's rare.

Most people don't consciously notice lip-sync error below about 50 ms and some are even more tolerant and can ignore 100 ms but a study at Stanford over 20 years ago showed even viewers who didn't consciously notice the problem suffered the same negative impact on their perception. The feelings about the characters they statistically correlated are the same as we have about people who don't make eye contact with us.

All viewers felt the characters were "more agitated, less truthful, less persuasive, etc.so it seems we subconsciously look away from the lip movement to avoid being confronted with the impossible - sound "before' the action that creates the sound - but are left with the same impression as if the charaters were the ones not making eye contact with us.

Google "Reeves and Voelker Audio Asynchrony" if you are interested in that research.

This also explains why in forums like this some viewers with identical equipment will report lip-sync problems while othres see no problem at all. Our "threshold of recognition" - the value of error at which we can no longer look far enough away to avoid noticing it - varies tremendously and will drop radically - sometimes to a few milli seconds - as soon as we finally notice it.

And then - when finally in our conscious- reducing the error to its former level often does not correct the problem. (You can't un-ring the bell.) That is to say you might ignore 80 ms error but aftre noticing 100 ms error you might be able to detect a few ms error.

It is an insidious problem that can only be truly corrected by adjusting the audio video alignment while watching.

I do this with a Felston digital audio delay but other companies like Alchemy2 and Primare (Primare Delay Box) make lip-sync correction products too.

If you set all other audio delays that may be offered by your equipment (TV's, AV receivers, and even DVD/BluRay players sometimes have delay settings) to zero and let an external delay provide all delay needed for correction your TV's inherent video delay will normally allow you to correct for arriving audio delay which does happen occassionally.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Nibor99 — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:34:00 GMT

Nickjoh,

Many thanks indeed for your full explanation of lip sync issues and a potential solution.

I have just done an internet search and found the following company which produces a device to help resolve the issue.

http://www.js-technology.com/store/product.php?id_product=21

I shall see how my viewing experience with Amazon Prime, and Jeremy Clarkson in particular, pans out and purchase a "lipsync box" if needs be.

Once again thank you for taking the trouble to help me out on this issue.

Robin

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

NickJoh — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 17:37:49 GMT

That seems like a good price as the Felston DD740 was over twice that amount and both Alchemy2 and the Primare Delay Box are almost twice the Felston's cost.

The big difference in those units is they all have a remote control which allows adjustment in 1 ms increments (1/3 ms for the Felston and 1 ms for the others) while watching.

If you can run cables to that unit so you can adjust it from a normal viweing distance it may work for you but the fact that it adjustes in 5 ms steps may mean you never feel it is in sync.

I say that because I had one of the first few Felston DD340's about 10 years ago and it had a firmware bug that caused it to adjust in 2 ms steps instead of 1 ms and I never felt I could achieve perfect sync. They caught the bug and recalled all early units and when I got the corrected unit that did adjust in 1 ms steps I felt I could get it in perfect sync.

I have since upgraded to their 4 input DD740 and it offers a fine mode that adjusts in 1/3 ms for those who are extremely sensitive but I always use the normal 1 ms mode. But 5 ms steps would be far to coarse and adjustment for me.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Nibor99 — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 14:16:35 GMT

NickJoh,

Once again many thanks for your thoughts on the lipsync issue. I will take them into acount should I feel that I need to buy a lipsync box.

I am sure that your comments will be also of great value to others with a similar problem.

Cheers

Robin

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Risc0n — Sun, 27 Nov 2016 23:22:28 GMT

@Nibor99 wrote:
Hi,
Hoping someone can help.
I have a 2015 Sony android TV - model KD43X8309CBU
Last night I tried Amazon Prime for the first time - terrible lip sync issues!!

I use a Canton Soundbase linked optically but even going through the TV speakers I have what seems to be a voice lip sync lag.

The TV was updated a few days ago and has the latest firmware.

I normally view through Virgin Media and have had no lipsync issues with them.

The wifi signal seems OK.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks

Robin

PS just tried another couple of Amazon Prime films these seem OK The issue seems to be mainly with the Grand Tour Jeremy Clarkson show

Yes, horrendous lipsync issues on Grand Tour. Recently ditched my Sony 1050 amp for a new Pioneer VSX-1131 and same problems. The issue is with the stream itself as issue is prevailant on TV too.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

arpwarden — Fri, 09 Dec 2016 10:18:25 GMT

I'm getting it to. See my thread here:

https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/android-tv/amazon-video-lipsync-creep-on-kd-43xd8088-latest-firmware/td-p/2264038

I din't post in this one as it was marked as solved when it very definitely isn't. I've also opened a ticket with Sony support about it now as well.

**Edit: I have been trying to raise a support ticket about the app and the worst streams with Amazon UK and it's just about impossible to do as far as I can see unless someone else can enlighten me???

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Risc0n — Wed, 22 Feb 2017 21:04:50 GMT

Well, updated to Marshmallow 6.0 and the issues are still there. Massive lip sync is mostly seen on all episodes of Grand Tour.

Some research seems that it is Amazon's DD+ stream that is the issue as problems on both ROKU and Nvidia Shield?

Nvidia Shield issues - https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/990329/amazon-video-audio-not-in-sync-after-experience-upgrade-5-0-/?offset=38

Roku issues - https://forums.roku.com/viewtopic.php?t=97972

@Anonymous is it possible this could be fed back to Sony?

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

BrockChis — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 01:02:30 GMT

I've had the same problem. It occurs with several Amazon prime programs but only when using Bravia app, not on other platforms or with other apps on TV.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

NickJoh — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 16:52:17 GMT

I don't want to belabour the point I have tried to make in other posts but lip-sync error to some degree is present in essentially "all" broadcasts. According to research at Stanford University in the US over 20 years ago most people do not consciously notice 42 ms of lip-sync error.

For some of us the threshold at which we notice lip-sync error consciously might be 80 or even 100 ms. We don't see it (consciously) until something pushes it beyond our own personal threshold. Naturally we blame whatever does that. Whatever app or programme or piece of equipment that introduced the last increment of lip-sync error that went beyond what we could ignore. I've seen it called our "threshold of recognition" which varies tremenously from one person to another.

But the device that gets the blame "may have" added far less lip-sync error than was already in the signals previously added by others. That is to say a device or app that adds the last 20 ms and brings the problem into your conscious gets the blame but if the signal had not already had 40 ms error caused by others you may never have noticed it. And others with a threshold above 60 ms (in this example) may still not notice it.

This problem is exacerbated by the fact our threshold of recognition drops greatly once we notice the problem. The theory is that we "were" subconsciously looking away from the characters' lip movement to avoid the impossibility lip-sync error presents. It can't happen in the "real world" so our brains can't process sound before the event that creates the sound.

But once it exceeds our ability to look away and ignore and enters our conscious we look at the lips - we look "for" it - and can see tiny lip-sync error we never consciously noticed before. Even as little as 1 ms for some of us!

That theory - that we look away from the faces to avoid the impossible - helps explain the discovery at Stanford that even lip-sync error that we don't consciously notice causes negative feelings about the characters similar to those we have about people who don't make eye contact with us. But aparently it is the viewer who is not making eye contact with the characters when lip-sync is off.

If there is a silver lining to this aggravating problem at least once we notice lip-sync error we can take steps to correct it and eliminate the negative impact it has on our perception oif the characters documented in the Stanford report.

I've suggested this before but if you are interested in the Stanford research report Google "Reeves and Voelker Audio Asynchrony" and I am sure you will find it as it is often quoted.

Their 40 ms threshold that most people don't notice has influenced the video standards committees but what they failed to address 23 years ago and is still true today is that there is nothing in the video and audio signals to define when they were ever in-sync. The insustry has treated synchronizing audio and video with open loop controls: At each stage from content creation through broacsasting they are expected to measure the video delay each digital video effect (DVE) causes and add an equal audio delay to offset it.

In a perfect world that could work. If every video delay were measured perfectly and every audio delay added synchronization would be maintained. But it only takes "one" to drop the ball and there are hundreds of DVE's along the path and any error introduced anywhere cannot be automnatically detected downstream so errors are cumulative.

This is why you will see lip-sync error on one programme and perhspa not the following one.

And if that programme you are watching has a large error it may be the real culprint causing you to notice lip-sync error when some device or app with a smaller contribution to the error added enough to push it beyond your threshold.

I work in this area so forgive me for getting on my soap box but as I try to contribute on these forums I see so many devices getting blamed for causing the problem when in fact if there were less lip-sync error in the signals their slight addition to the error probably would not be noticed by many.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel as SMPTE has approved a standard that would add "signatures" of each video and accompanying audio frame to metadata to be passed with the signals. If this catches on it should eventually mean there will be signals that actually define when the content producer felt his ceation was in-sync and allow correcting lip-sync at any point in the broadcast chain no matter where the error originated.

I hope it will be accepted and all the eqipment required to utilize it will be purchased but my guess is that we're taling 10 yto 15 years or more if at all. The problem is "chicken or the egg" in that currently no programmes have the metadata signatures implanted so expensive equipment to read and realign audio with video would accomplish nothing. And content producers see no advantage to purchasing equipment to add signatures for which no broadcaster has equipment to utilize. And even worse - to my knowledge - no broadcast equipment manufacturer is producing and promoting products for broadcasters to utilize.

This same situation occurred almost 20 years ago. Tektronix had developed their AVDC100 which would watermark audio and video signals and use those watermarks to realign lipsync downstream. It was a fantastic product in my opinion but the induustry did not accept it and tektronix finally gave uo and exited the market. they cost about $8000 for each end which is not much to a TV station so that wasn't the problem. It was the same problem the new signature scheme has: It's worthles until "everybody" buys in to the scheme. and invests in the equipment.

But at least it is "possible" that someday the signals will be there to correct lip-sync automatically.

I think the hype around the HDMI "auto lip-sync correction" feature announced with HDMI 1.3 has caused a lot of confusion as most consumers seem to think that means it can somehow automatically correct lip-sync. Of coures it can't - since there are presently no signals in the video or audio upon which to base such automatic correction - but it makes consumers think it is possible and if it were possible then they naturally blame manufactures of equipment they think could alos maintain lip-sync automatically.

I don't envy manufacturers and broadcasters like Sky who constantly catch the blame for something they can't possibly correct. ALl they can hope to do is reduce their contribution to the problem and hope that's enough to keep it below most viewers threshold.

Incidentally all HDMI's "auto lip-sync cortrection" feature which has caused so much confusion can do is declare via EDID session with each source (like plug and play for computers) two latency values for audio and video. One set for interlaced and one for progressive video. They will be about 20 ms apart.

They are fixed values for the video delay of the TV and have nothing to do with any lip-sync error in the arriving signals. When this was announced (HDMI 1.3) most AV receivers aready offered fixed audio delay settings to compensate for a TV's video delay which did the same thing but consumers assumed it could dynamically correct for changing lip-sync which still isn't possible.

It's a worthless feature which can be confirmed by the number of TV manufacturers who actually support it. Basically NONE. Most major TV manufacturers don't put those latency values in the EDID data. And those who do (like some Sony and Toshiba TV's I've seen) make it worthless by adding audio delay intrenally the user can't turn off. , etc. I had a Toshiba that sent the data but it applied the delay (100 or 116 ms) onit's audio as well as it's s/pdif output so the user has no option to turn it off and let another device like an AV receiver or external lip-sync correction product provide the delay. That deprives the user of the TV's video delay which in cojunction with and audio delay allows correcting for audio that arrives delayed or is delayed by external speakers like sonos, etc.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Risc0n — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 17:46:47 GMT

@NickJoh The issue is with the app and the DD+ Stream specifically, not the hardware. Before Amazon had 5.1 there was no lipsync issues. The blame lies between Sony and Amazon.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Anonymous — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 17:52:30 GMT

Ive just signed up to Amazon Prime (my free month), so i;ll see if I get the same issue.

Even if I dont, there seems enough people confirming the issue anyhow.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

NickJoh — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 19:58:51 GMT

I undertsand what you are saying. That is what caused you to notice it.

The point I was trying to make - but apparently failed to - is that it is very possible the incremental lip-sync error that has caused you to notice the problem (pushed it beyond your threshold of recognition) is far less than the erro already in the signals that you could previously ignore.

And if that existing error had not already ben there you would not be noticing the amount it increased.

I hope that makes sense.

If they are adding 20 ms they may think that's OK since it's under the 40 ms the industry accepts but if 40 is already there and you notice 60 it's not for you.

Take Sonos for example. They apparently don't think the 30 ms they delay audio is a big deal. But it is when it pushes the error beyond a viewers ability to subconsciously ignore it.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Anonymous — Mon, 27 Feb 2017 20:17:15 GMT

Issue added to the bugs and issues thread:

https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/android-tv/android-tv-bugs-and-issues/m-p/2300533#M16979

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Jecht_Sin — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:37:24 GMT

Just to confirm that I've got the same issue. With Gran Tour indeed. I just subscribed to Amazon Prime two days ago because I bought some stuff, and the first experience with Gran Tour has been great. Straight to UHD/HDR, no lip sync issues, just excellent.

Then few hours later, at the beginning it was playing at 480p (or even lower) and once the image stabilised to full UHD I noticed the lip sync issue (and I am not talking about 50ms. They felt like 200-300ms to me. Even more). I am checking it now (I am on Carnival holiday if you wonder why so much free time! :smileythumbsup:) and the lip synch seems to have disappeared. The problem is that I am not sure if the content is UHD (I have a 100Mbps fiber connection, 70-75Mbps effective that keeps going down...). It seems a bit jaggy to me for being UHD. More like 1080p. I am few cm from the television, so I can tell.

Yup. Few minutes later is still looks sub UHD (and speedtest.net reports 75Mbps). So I don't know. Maybe it's an issue with the Amazon servers themselves?

Anyway, on the bright side those three old farts are a lot of fun!! I love that show! Really funny.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Kuschelmonschter — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:25:13 GMT

Quinnicus schrieb:
Issue added to the bugs and issues thread:
https://community.sony.co.uk/t5/android-tv/android-tv-bugs-and-issues/m-p/2300533#M16979

I am also having the lip sync and stuttering issues on The Grand Tour for exmple. Here are my findings:

1080p video + PCM audio: no problem

1080p video + Dolby Digital: no problem

4K video + PCM audio: no problem

4K video + Dolby Digital: stuttering and lip sync issues

It is the combination of 4K video and Dolby Digital Passthrough that is causing trouble for me.

Re: Amazon Prime Lip Sync Problems

Kuschelmonschter — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 13:38:19 GMT

Just one more piece of information... I force the Sony to output PCM by applying the respective setting under Settings > Sound > Digital audio out

This means I am changing the behaviour of the system and not Amazon, in this case decoding Dolby Digital instead of passing it through.

Added this problem also to my bugtracker.